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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/28/2004 : 18:16:11 [Permalink]
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I myself would be interested in knowing the species of fish described as 'gasping for air'. Perhaps he means the whales and dolphins, those silly mammals dressed up as fish.
There are air-breathing fish of course, but most of these absorb their oxygen, not with lungs, but a capillary system in the mouth -- see the brief essay on gymnotiforms in the God Off His Meds thread for examples.
Our friend verlch has one thing right, however. If the global flood had happened as described, the violence of the waters, not to mention the heat, would have been such that little beyond bacteria would have survived. This includes a desperatly seasick Noah, his entourage, and his cargo.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2004 : 21:27:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I myself would be interested in knowing the species of fish described as 'gasping for air'. Perhaps he means the whales and dolphins, those silly mammals dressed up as fish.
There are air-breathing fish of course, but most of these absorb their oxygen, not with lungs, but a capillary system in the mouth -- see the brief essay on gymnotiforms in the God Off His Meds thread for examples.
Our friend verlch has one thing right, however. If the global flood had happened as described, the violence of the waters, not to mention the heat, would have been such that little beyond bacteria would have survived. This includes a desperatly seasick Noah, his entourage, and his cargo.
Fish live on oxygen to pal!!!!! Same thing as us, and since evolution has no tangible purpose why are humans limited to air breathing, why didn't we evole in water and swim too and fro....since of course we are void of purpose. |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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| Edited by - verlch on 04/28/2004 21:39:33 |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2004 : 21:37:32 [Permalink]
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Oooooooops! Sorry! Trees pertrified at 2,000 years of age cannot possibly be due to the Flood described in Genesis, since it happened only 1,614 years after the Earth was created. Such trees would therefore be 125% of the age of the universe. God wouldn't screw up like that, would He?
Well if Bristle cone pines live over 4500 years than we should be able to find some stone trees 4500 years old guys. You give yourselves millions of years to fossilize things, maybe that was billions!!! And you can't find me a real, not fake, bristle cone pine (stone) in the ground? I mean with all that time! and the abiltiy for a tree to turn to stone upside down no less and show no signs of rotting.
If the fossil record world wide was formed all at once during a flood, why then are the fossils arrainged in an order predicted by the ToE; why are there not mammal fossils associated with those from the Devonian, dinosaurs bones tangled with human?
I dunno, because maybe man could swim! They had less mass than the dinosours. Only the weak got buried first. And again you should be able to point to a plethera of missing links buried in the fossil record to prove your point!
(Thanks for mocking my spelling, being a Jesus Freak and all I'm sure that's something you would expect from a 'hollywood wakco' such as I.
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What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2004 : 23:08:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
quote:
Oooooooops! Sorry! Trees pertrified at 2,000 years of age cannot possibly be due to the Flood described in Genesis, since it happened only 1,614 years after the Earth was created. Such trees would therefore be 125% of the age of the universe. God wouldn't screw up like that, would He?
Well if Bristle cone pines live over 4500 years than we should be able to find some stone trees 4500 years old guys. You give yourselves millions of years to fossilize things, maybe that was billions!!! And you can't find me a real, not fake, bristle cone pine (stone) in the ground? I mean with all that time! and the abiltiy for a tree to turn to stone upside down no less and show no signs of rotting.
I get the idea you are missing the point here. You claim that a 2000 year old tree has been petrified in a great flood, which according to your reckoning (we assume) occurred 1,614 years after the creation of earth. This makes the tree older than the earth. That's impossible.
I am not sure whether we have trees of 4,000 years or older in the fossil record. However, that very old trees existed doesn't mean they also got petrified at that age. So I see no problem there. Also, that we have a tree nowadays which lives 4,000 years, does not mean that they existed in the past (although it does make it more plausible).
I don't know about the trees upside down and the no signs of rotting. Could you explain a bit more about that? I'd say a local (instead of a global) flood might do the trick, but I'd like some more information.
quote:
quote:
If the fossil record world wide was formed all at once during a flood, why then are the fossils arrainged in an order predicted by the ToE; why are there not mammal fossils associated with those from the Devonian, dinosaurs bones tangled with human?
I dunno, because maybe man could swim! They had less mass than the dinosours. Only the weak got buried first. And again you should be able to point to a plethera of missing links buried in the fossil record to prove your point!
Please prove your point for a time. The mass argument doesn't hold, since there were plenty of little dinosaurs and big mammals. Creatures aren't arranged by size in the fossilrecord, so you'll have to come up with a better argument than that.
For the missing links, there are enough there. I suggest you do a simple google-search.
quote:
(Thanks for mocking my spelling, being a Jesus Freak and all I'm sure that's something you would expect from a 'hollywood wakco' such as I.
I must say you took a lot more effort to produce something readable here. Very good! Now, if you signify it when you quote someone next time (doesn't have to be fancy, quotation marks will do just fine), then I'll be perfectly happy.
Also, you've come back again to answer some of the posts. I hope you keep it up. On that point, Filthy had some more questions he'd love to see answered... |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2004 : 01:13:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Thank you 20 year old mortal....Your a genuis!!!!
If you want any respect, drop the arrogance.
I'm not interested in you uninformed opinion or your repeating of ignorance and lies
that you dont even understand.
I don't really care about your spelling (there is a spell check feature), but if you can't
be bothered to write coherent, why should I bother to read your pathetic drivel.
(Hint. Copy-paste one creationist lie at the time.) |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2004 : 04:01:26 [Permalink]
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So, once yet again, I will post this and in return I'd like to see some documentation of the 2,000 yo, fossil trees. Who did the study; when and where was it done; and sponsored by what organization?
So, here we go:
quote:
Date: 09-02-99 10:11
From: Marty Leipzig
Hey, Georgie. The cretinists at the ICR, AIG, CRC and a half-dozen other fundy-run shill organizations absolutely insist on the Flood of Noah" being global (meaning ALL the world, to your limited deference). To them, your claim that it was local makes you the infidel.
Shocking. When you're obviously nothing more than a nescient schmuck.
Hell, I'm just taking what they claim and agreeing it to death.
Viz:
First- the global flood supposedly (Scripturally) covered the planet, (see that, George? If so, why are you still being so stupid?) and Mount Everest is 8,848 meters tall. The diameter of the earth at the equator, on the other hand, is 12,756.8 km. All we have to do is calculate the volume of water to fill a sphere with a radius of the Earth + Mount Everest; then we subtract the volume of a sphere with a radius of the Earth. Now, I know this won't yield a perfect result, because the Earth isn't a perfect sphere, but it will serve to give a general idea about the amounts involved.
So, here are the calculations:
First, Everest
V= 4/3 * pi * r cubed
= 4/3 * pi * 6387.248 km cubed
= 1.09151 x 10 to the 12 cubic kilometres (1.09151x102 km3)
Now, the Earth at sea level
V = 4/3 * pi * r cubed
= 4/3 * pi * 6378.4 km cubed
= 1.08698 x 10 to the 12 cubic kilometres (1.08698x1012 km3)
The difference between these two figures is the amount of water needed to just cover the Earth:
4.525 x 10 to the ninth cubic kilometres (4.525x1009 km3) Or, to put into a more sensible number, 4,525,000,000,000 cubic kilometres
This is one helluva lot of water.
As you seem to have an aversion toward opening links (an aversion shared by many), I'll hit a few more highlights:
quote:
Even further, let us take a realistic and dispassionate look at the other claims relating to global flooding and other such biblical nonsense.
Particularly, in order to flood the Earth to the Genesis requisite depth of 10 cubits (~15' or 5 m.) above the summit of Mt. Ararat (16,900' or 5,151 m AMSL), it would obviously require a water depth of 16,915' (5,155.7 m), or over three miles above mean sea level. In order to accomplish this little task, it would require the previously noted additional 4.525 x 109 km3 of water to flood the Earth to this depth. The Earth's present hydrosphere (the sum total of all waters in, on and above the Earth) totals only 1.37 x 109 km3. Where would this additional 4.525 x 109 km3 of water come from? It cannot come from water vapour (i.e., clouds) because the atmospheric pressure would be 840 times greater than standard pressure of the atmosphere today. Further, the latent heat released when the vapour condenses into liquid water would be enough to raise the temperature of the Earth's atmosphere to approximately 3,570 C (6,460 F).
Someone, who shall properly remain anonymous, suggested that all the water needed to flood the Earth existed as liquid water surrounding the globe (i.e., a "vapour canopy"). This, of course, it staggeringly stupid. What is keeping that much water from falling to the Earth? There is a little property called gravity that would cause it to fall.
Let's look into that from a physical standpoint. To flood the Earth, we have already seen that it would require 4.252 x 109 km3 of water with a mass of 4.525 x 1021 kg. When this amount of water is floating about the Earth's surface, it stored an enormous amount of potent |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/29/2004 04:12:51 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2004 : 12:38:10 [Permalink]
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Let's go through the things verlch has assumed to be true (or has implied are true), without supporting:- No fossilized tree has ever been shown to be more than 2,000 years old at its death.
- We should be able to find fossilized trees older than 2,000 years at their deaths if the Earth is old.
- Some unnamed guy bred billions of generations of fruit flies.
- None of those fruit flies ever showed any hints of evolving.
- But they were all unique.
- Earth displays the same evidence of being manufactured as a watch.
- Human brains defy nature.
- There are more neurons in a human brain than there are stars in the universe.
- The Bible contains truth.
- Christians and Jews are executed for their beliefs today and will be in the future.
- Saddam tried to rebuild Babylon.
- At least one person was convinced of evolution by the Piltdown Man hoax.
- "Learned men" (supposedly scientists) would kill people for not believing the world was flat 400 years ago.
- Teachers wouldn't have jobs if they didn't believe in evolution.
- Those same teachers can't explain individual humans' uniqueness.
- There is no scientific explanation for clouds floating.
- The teachers of our teachers were strong atheists.
- Strong atheism promotes job security and ensures the publication of papers and books.
- People who understand evolution think it means "we evolved from nothing."
- There is no visible proof of evolution.
- There are trillions of species extant today.
- Cosmic accidents are worthless.
- Nobody who understands evolution also glorifies God.
- Earth is "what the universe would have been like if the Devil had controlled it."
- "Lucifer was in heaven with God and he rejected Him."
- "Isreal was God's choosen people and the rejected Him."
- God lead the Israelites through the desert in a cloud.
- The story of Noah and the Flood as found in the Bible is accurate.
- The people here take joy in mocking Christians and Jews.
- The dead are capable of knowledge.
- We can't see evidence of macroevolution today.
- Trees have existed for as long as the Earth.
- There are upside-down fossilized trees with roots intact.
- Only a global flood can explain such fossils.
- Fossilized fish show evidence that they were gasping for air.
- The same fossilized fish have broken backs and are twisted by a "global force."
- Geological strata are "broken and smashed" in all directions.
- Evolution "has no purpose" for humans breathing air.
- We should be able to find 4,500-year-old fossilized bristlecone pines.
- There are upside-down fossils of trees which show no signs of rot.
- A global flood coupled with hydrological sorting and swimming humans explains the relative positions of fossils to one another.
- A plethora of "missing links" should be found in the fossil record.
- Such "missing links" would "prove" evolution.
Rather than argue against the conclusions verlch draws from these premises, I suggest we all wait until verlch can support the premises themselves with sufficient evidence such that it would be unreasonable to think them false. I understand that all previous requests for such support have gone unanswered, but I don't think verlch understands that his/her assertions are not, in fact, the undeniable truths he/she thinks they are. Until we can agree on the premises, no meaningful discussion will take place. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2004 : 13:39:35 [Permalink]
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Damn, Dave!!
What I want you to do now is to kick back with a double knock, not of that cheap crap, but a good distillation aged to perfection. After sorting through that mess, you've earned it!
I myself woulf like to see verlch support just one of those suppositions. Just one. All I ask.
And if that's not feasable, and it's pretty much not, he can refute any or all of my own examples. I all but live for some optomistic YEC to take on the Liepzig. 
Enjoy the knock. I'm plannin' on one or three meself. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2004 : 16:16:17 [Permalink]
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Dave, all I do is ask these guys for evidence. I don't even argue with them. I just ask for sources. Anything! I lost my patients with unsupported creationist claims long ago. I'm with you. As a skeptic, I think asking for evidence is the only way to deal with their extraordinary claims...
edited for spelling. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2004 : 16:36:12 [Permalink]
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Just wanted to add one more thing, the rains that supposibly flooded the Earth all fell in 40 days. Thats:
4,525,000,000,000 cubic kilometres in 40 days
113,125,000,000 per day
4,713,541,666 per hour
78,559,027 per minute
1,309,317 per second
(all in km^3)
How would anything (including tree roots that were turned upside down) withstand such a force? |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2004 : 17:19:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Just wanted to add one more thing, the rains that supposibly flooded the Earth all fell in 40 days. Thats:
4,525,000,000,000 cubic kilometres in 40 days
113,125,000,000 per day
4,713,541,666 per hour
78,559,027 per minute
1,309,317 per second
(all in km^3)
How would anything (including tree roots that were turned upside down) withstand such a force?
Yeh.
I've heard it compared to global hydrolic mining. And some poorly designed, oversized, overloaded barge, with no steerage, crewed by 8 terrified, seasick people with not a single, experienced sailor among them, was supposed to survive this?! :rude laughter:
O'course, the Big G might have been miraclatin' 24/7 for a year. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2004 : 20:48:10 [Permalink]
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Thanks, filthy, I'll grab a 12-pack on the way home tomorrow. And yes, Kil, I'm well aware of your style - I'm just not sure that everyone else here is, and I lose sight of it myself every once-in-a-while. It's nice to be reminded, and a list of 43 unsupported claims is a good way to do so.
But, I can't resist the lure of the numbers...
1,309,317 km3 of water falling per second over 511,201,962 km2 of the Earth's surface works out to about an inch of water, every second. Big thunderstorms can dump an inch of water per hour, so the Flood must have been 3,600 times more damaging, at a minimum.
Not counting my head, I present approximately a 20×7" 'target' when viewed from above. An inch of water over that surface area weighs a hair under 4.85 pounds. 4.85 pounds at 25 miles an hour or so (the terminal velocity of raindrops, if I remember correctly), and... and...
...and I've run out of math for the evening. How much stinking energy is that? Is it likely to knock me flat? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 01:34:26 [Permalink]
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Hmm. What was that all about?
Are we playing a game here? If so, please tell ue the rules so's we can play too.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2004 : 07:19:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
[Deleted unremarked-upon quote of filthy's prior big post - Dave W.]
Thanks for the scrub, Dave. T'was a waste of pixles.
Verlch, I stiil patiently wait for the answers to my questions. How, when, where, and by whom was the dating of the fossil trees done? Can you refute the math in Leipzig's essay? What are your thoughts on the described polystrate fossils? Can you demonstrate the alledged weakness in radiometric dating? Can you falsify the described progression in Human Evolution?
Further, what are your thoughts on the Irridum Layer, discussed in another thread? I am also curious to know how Noah managed to build a vessel of such size that it would require an entire shipyard, foundries, smitties, saw-pits, mills, and ropewalks, to construct. And what forest did he clear-cut to get the lumber for all of this?
Questions, questions. 'Tis the curse and the blessing of the skeptic, is it not?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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